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I thought we might take advantage of the stellar cast as Ryan said to take a little deeper dive into what is. Going to be the catalysts and the requirements for the expansion and continued development of the security token I think we all understand what it is and where and or possibly where it is. Where it's going and and that and and and that the asset you know the tokenization of assets is akin to the you know the democratization of investment opportunities globally so which is a. Fantastic result of all of our work over the past. Several years you being the longest-tenured of this of this panel as evidenced by the lack of hair so I want to engage with everybody here. And everyone has had their had their you know had their main you know things being done you know my marina did one of the first token are you know I'm a securitized tokens and fun form Bakhtin capital Joey an esteemed lawyer here and and understands all the regulatory side and knows where this are going Olga has. Their different is and you know has her own company that's that that's engaging all these things and and the specialties in. The course Simon so. I'm gonna start with marina at the far end what are. The catalysts and things that are going to require to be developed for the expansion of this market of a token of security tokens well I was I would say two main things first one maybe if governments and regulators just give more clarity on. How they think about those instruments right so when we do. Kind of security token offerings now. Some of the some of the legal firms would come up with a very long list of jurisdictions that they simply exclude just because they done their work and they feel that in those jurisdictions these offerings just do not work right some other firms take a little bit. More different approach and they think. That this is doable so that. Clarity from regulators I think would would definitely be helpful. And so else my fourth part the second point I go. Back to you are you talking about specific regulators or are you talking about general regulation with respect. To the existing securities laws as they apply because again we're looking at you know you know we keep saying this keep coming back to this this is a global framework a global investment framework that is hamstrung by jurisdictional regulation so are you so are you trying to suggest now that there's that that the existing securities. Laws that we. Would comply with when issuing a security token in various jurisdictions have to be somewhat harmonized or or you know where are you going with that well the best thing would be if more and more regulators implement. Things like JOBS Act in the u.s. right and even Jobs X in the US I think would be very worth I guess maybe maybe introducing some further exemptions that are in line with this market right as exactly as you said as of now we just have to apply the existing framework of securities laws which is not which is. Not necessarily up-to-date with what is happening in this market so you know legal firms do best trying to structure the instrument that work with those securities laws but I. Wish the regulators are also a little. Bit more supportive in terms of either being providing very clear guidance as to how those should be done or perhaps even introducing further exemptions for specific offerings all right so we can get to whether that's even possible or even realistic as we get through here when one might argue either Joey what are your thoughts are it's. A different one I mean I'm gonna take maybe a very slightly different operation and I some I think someone made a comment yesterday the starting point for my regulators or regulatory authority authorities in the world is to. Take the path of least least resistance which is always to apply existing frameworks as they exist today to new technology so it's a difficult everyone talks about the security framework there's an obvious demand and an obvious requirement for that to exist to facilitate this industry but the same time not everyone seems to focus a lot on on on the. Sales part of the actual security token so dealing with the credit investor Reggae Reggae Reggae options. In the US for investment contracts etc not a lot of people think and talk about the actual operational part that sits behind that right so the custody well it doesn't just affect the sale arrangement of transactions or lots. Of financial promotion rules the loss of lots of costs fuels the lots of rights that attach to securities that people are not always that familiar with they're very focused on the sales process I personally I mean I'd like to see I'd like to see you know this industry more recognized all these specific tokens more. Recognized as a separate asset class and dealt with slightly definitely there were some specific things mentioned both this morning and yes I think then he mentioned something about just the you know the the the actual physical asset itself and how do you how do you bridge the legal gap between smart contract and the physical stuff. So so I think there's a lot of things that have to happen all the police yours well you know overall I think you know the regulator around the world will have a very challenging task now to figure out you know how they can enable this innovation and enable more capital formation in this innovative space right not through. When she cannot through intermediaries but directly coming from from consumer right and basically you know it's. Kind of like the question yeah we are talking about investor protection and consumer protection but come on. Guys over the years the system became actually a much more insider protection of Wall Street protected reactants their interest if you think about how high people IPO works today right you as an investor here at the very end of the Perkins order right. So first there is like you know displacement they a private placement and Goldman Sachs and tadhana and all these guys get it access right and and by the time they. Are done and they sold this is where you as a consumer comes into play so now was I see what I'm particularly excited about this is reverse reverse order or the reverse pecking order anybody from China any small guy can invest alongside Anderson and all these big guys right and be part of. This opportunity it never had this before so that's amazing right and and I think you know smaller governments will be more proactive and more flexible and how they approach to this channel challenge right this is why we are all here. This is why I built ours this is why Switzerland this is why my data right and Layton Stein also working on and I think bigger government's say don't see they don't have such a big perch or neat to chase this opportunity the difference between the issuer side and where as being issued from well we've come back. To this several times and the buy side and where that's going so yeah you know yes so you know buyers are not always sitting in Gibraltar or Singapore's let's own or whatever but they there are some you know obviously you. Know yep but on the buy side you have another thing Simon interested in your views here well I'd say I don't think the securities token market is going to do the same as the utility toka market you talked about separating those. Asset classes they are really separate asset classes security tokens are not going to democratize investing I know that because we've been trying to do that since 2010 and we had to go to high net worth as the only global model that could work and retail investors already have securities laws which is you I would be a public company. Will you be private and if you're private you can only work with high net worth if you're public then you can work with retail but you have to do with the same disclosures of course the same amount money none of that changes by. Tokenizing what does change is the currency by which it's traded against so you could have liquidity for the high-net-worth. Market in the private market and but will the securities token democratize investing I don't think it will I think it would just create a better investment for people that have been investing in illiquid assets and utility tokens will. Democratize investing and if the u.s. says that these are all securities then everyone was stopped allowing the u.s. to purchase them because in Hong Kong the definition of a security is arriver in equity you're a debenture your debt or your reflective investment scheme and if you're not you're not. A security and many different places around the worlds have very similar things so you you've got you've got to look at the the way that we're going to democratize investing is going to be Hardware while it's a hardware wallet utility token to utility token global markets in things that aren't securities that's gonna democratize the market. Right so by saying the currency changes you're saying that okay you can buy exposure to a real estate portfolio in Johannesburg but I don't necessarily have to. Sell that if I want to sell that into into Rand or I. Can or dollars I can sell them into any other crypto that I choose to sell it and presume you know there's a market for that but I don't have to ever come back to Fiat it's not what you're saying but by changing this is wonderfully that's. One thing but then if you want to go to fear you then take the off-ramps from Bitcoin or crypto and go to the the stable coin or the currency that you want right based upon the traditional off-ramps and the same thing okay why is that beneficial that's. Beneficial because of the well firstly not creating silos monopolies in certain jurisdictions by doing by achieving that through the currency that it's actually traded against so if there's capital controls in China then you can only get fifty thousand US dollars and therefore if you've got fifty thousand US dollars if you. Need to have dollar in order to invest in an asset class then you can't do that she mentioned capital controls in China so so so that then begs the. Potential then if I invest in something an asset in China and then and then some law comes out hence that says. Okay you can't transfer adi you can't you know sell it into into local currency and then take the local currency out the fact that it's tokenized and the fact that I can transact it with somebody else outside of that country for a currency that's outside that. Country then I've effectively gotten around those laws is that what you're saying well you might temporarily get around those laws but governments are not going to allow you to carry on around those. Laws they're gonna define their policies acting offshore offshore and a peer-to-peer basis and a currency that isn't theirs and obviously I've done that yeah with the with that and that's why utility is a democratization the securities regulator side is just gonna create more liquidity okay okay you have something the same yeah you know it's kind of always. Laughing about this one this is actually what we've had in. Switzerland for a hundred years right is this offshore banking model right where it's just people from all around the world burns their money to to protect their wealth and and grow it right and many many people think oh it's just all about tax evasion no it's not you know for most people in emerging markets it's. Just about safety and protection and they don't care about taxes if there would be a. Legitimate way to pay taxes on their say on their well since what's on they would do it you know and I. Think this is where blockchain is really really powerful because for the first time in human history we'll probably be able to create some sense that given you protection without giving you opportunity for tax evasion think about think about putting all the assets or Swiss banks on the blockchain and and and then you can say well the source country. Its Indonesia you can run a note on our permission block scene you can see the transactions of your citizens you cannot see their names right but you can see how much they have on our Swiss banks right and we can pay you taxes like some general tax 20% because just off to you we had. This kind of agreement now as European Union right so you if you're a citizen of European Union and you have money with Swiss banks the taxes I was taught at the end of the year automatically but the source country does not know where is it coming from. Right and this is just one example and I think what is Simon is talking about and what I'm absolutely also excited about is that we had this you know opportunity of borderless capital for only rich guys before right if you're rich you can have. Your cell come in companies you can bring capital outs you can invest in great companies but this. Is like if you're five million. Plus if your customer of you know credit Swiss or your bears and what Bitcoin. And cryptocurrencies are changing they're given the same to all of us if you if all. Your wealth is a half Bitcoin you can still move your money in a global way I mean if regulators allow retail investors to invest in securities it's the same thing so which I'm not going to do and sorry you're absolutely right and you use the term democratization and that's the critical point what we're seeing at the moment is a. Lot of regulators towards you know the application securities frameworks to to everything let's just let's just play it safe. And apply that if you're dealing with an accredited investor regime in the US or a qualified MSU regime in the UK or whatever it might be it's. Very it it's very difficult you're centralizing the type of people that can gain exposure to this to and accredits invest group now 50. Years ago having a million dollars in the bank and gaining exposure to a risky new investment that was the safe way of doing it today I could find many 18-year old guys that can make a more accurate. And effective investment decision for five hundred pounds and in particular token then then a million dollar investor to understanding that the way that we're trying to approach trying to direct things is to create call it the pieces of the securities frameworks related to disclosure relating to transparency applying those key principles to. A new utility token framework rather than saying you know everything applies. In tell me what I think it's incumbent upon us to take a bit of perspective on this too is. That the securities laws is you know because good or bad or it knows there might be with respect to you know democratization and also the. Way that is that it has developed within investment. Banks cuz I used to I used to run the derivatives group at an investment bank and Marina's work that I'm an investment paying something's like that how those things have developed and the sales processes have developed. Aren't regulatory those are just basically ease so what so perhaps we perhaps a circle right back to how this gets developed and how it expands into something that is more available to everyone so perhaps that ease of. Sale and the methodology of those sales is something that is that if we make it simple and make it easy for everyone to look at and and. Review and you know. And allow the access to that then we've accomplished something it's not gonna happen. Tomorrow I don't think so yeah I think regulators have been trying to solve that for many years and it didn't require a blockchain to come along. Exactly right all it requires is a little bit of well well firstly to sell to individuals that are buying $200 at a crack it's a I can't say that word there's a body a lot of work because the traditional sales process. Is man demand telephone this kind of stuff now we have this online. Process you go one I'm built one you know this is all happening so now the ability to to to transmit that you know read it. The same thing perhaps you can talk about that the ability to transmit that information then the. Opportunity must be must be one of those things that helps advance and and why didn't. The widen the investor network perhaps I'm wrong please tell. Me if I'm no I definitely agree and I think Olga you. Had very good slide in your presentation about so many parties I involved in that securities process now but actually and that again historically that just was. How things worked but that's not necessarily that's the almost optimal way to do it and I think the fact that we started with utility talk and the fact that we started that disruption there a lot of the. Kind of better practices that were generated there can. Be translated security token space at least you know some of the intermediaries would go into the past. Maybe they not needed anymore but that still obviously would be subject to securities law I think the disruption of intermediaries the fact that we will be bringing previously illiquid asset classes to the to the space the liquidity even if they're still not. Gonna be enough investors the retail investors and investing just because they are limited by the securities laws I think that those two things alone already would change that that landscape very significantly and if I may pick up crack on your point I spend a lot of time. Thinking about exactly that right because once those laws and regulatory frameworks were created in awesome 40 30 years ago. Right it was a pretty different world now we have internet and intranet and access to information changed the way how people deal with investments and in taxes and just think about one thing while you're talking about all the security or friends and house is different from ICO at the end of. The day it's all about public solicitation right so so if I want to do advertisement in Japan that I am selling my utility token in Japan publicly I want to put there like you know advertisement and talk to people to retail investors this is what. I'm not allowed to do right right but look guys maybe they don't need it right look how Swiss offshore banking works you know on board it into UBS right you're not Swiss you're from somewhere else right and this was Bank is selling you the. Same Japanese or jibril tar or whatever also the Securities right is that allowed to do it because you are their client right so think about it and well so they they can advertise to you. Because you ins am worried to you because they have a banking license and and we like you know token market all these platforms well. We don't have a banking license yet so this is why you're not allowed to to advertise also investment opportunities well okay. Well we'll get there and I think just it I mean it's a it's a it's a very natural evolution I think of the space but I mean some people and I sound sort of negative it's it's. It's very attractive when you start to trigger security lower requirements you know other than have what everyone understands you know you are entering into an entire new universe of suitability testing and requirements and also ownership and control transfer ability. If you have a token that represents equity in our business you can't just secure it as that in some ERC 20 token and make it freely transfer transferable around. The globe instantly to anyone at any price over any market there are lots of responsibilities for the company to understand who its interests are delegated to and how buying who's arranging that transaction who's advising on it who's testing who receive ism there's a lot of so those networks frameworks platforms exchanges hopefully are going to take the solutions but today. When someone says I want to do that today you know they have to understand that the attractions of the liquidity that theoretically exist them as well could be very very restricted or non-existent. The practical examples of tokenized funds in the past blockchain capital spice PC all of these guys there are very hefty restrictions built into those prospectuses there's to do with their transfer penalties 80% value you can lose on on a transfer that hasn't been recorded and approved etc so people. Need to understand sometimes people think about the utility so you can university see the world and they think well let's just take some security sponsors do a private cell and then we have the entire university there's several of things that are the you know you know yeah the revolve around securities and the transference of a security. That we haven't even talked about you know pavel mentioned that the ERC 20 token or whatever may or may not be useful provide and you may have to go into it you know into into a provision exchange and there's probably several other things that that have yet to be fully investigated. By most people as to what some of the barriers might be yeah whether those will be solved I don't think it's I don't think it's a question that it'll be solved it's a question of how so I mean you've been you've you've been through this iteration several times with. The platforms that you put together and things that and and you know and the regulated dealer that you have in the States well what say you on that which particular pot anyone. Just don't speak for 20 minutes okay all right well what do we what are we trying to do here so and like we've seen the power of what happens with. Utility tokens we've seen the the world wants to participate in something when they can see that there's an opportunity to speculate the question is is that utility market that we saw in started in 2014 and peeped in 2017 and still. Continues today did we get more fraud scams and problems there than we did in the regulated market and I'm not sure whether what the answer to that. Is I think we had just as many scams fraud Ponzi schemes and problems in the regulated market in a bigger size yeah as we did as we did in the unregulated market so it's calling into. Question we've got those two examples to look at and unfortunately you know it's a bit of a useless question because we're not going to suddenly around the world just suddenly say okay regulations doesn't work that ain't gonna happen if you're thinking that suddenly governments are gonna not care about money laundering not. Care about terrorism finance and even though none of us are detecting any money laundering or terrorist. Financing because none of those are using these mechanisms we really aren't detecting any of it we're all just ticking boxes what would I know about that if I might interrupt is that most regulators actually I shouldn't say most I should say the ones that I'm familiar with most are the entire Securities Commission. And the SEC and and they see from from from a traditional securities issuance they see serial fraudsters the same guy coming through time and. Time and time again doing. Securities you know selling you know pump and dump schemes or whatever. Like that nothing to do with a. Token or anything else but they're doing it over and over and over and they're you know they watch them and they find him and then they haul. Him you know and they haul him up in front and they whack him on the knuckles and then he goes back and you know serves as penance and that does it again it's interesting where's our where's our bad actor stuff that we always talk about trying to get rid of these people well you know we have our fair. Share of fraud and scams we have big connects we had one coin we had all sorts of stuff but it's interesting to us does telegram read it do. A better job of regulating the industry than the regulator's I'm not sure there's a clear answer to that I'm not sure if for that term why would it actually clear why would it yeah you have reason to think that I'll tell. You why because why would that be we we had an experiment where all of these things were essentially ignoring securities laws for three years and did read. It telegram to tech more bad actors by people all calling out scams right so the community is doing this for the community regulated better then what happened under the guise of this is authorized this is regulated I'm not sure I've got the answers that it's an interesting to be that's why I want to see the to. Go I don't want to see everything turn into securities tokens the utility token market is important because I want to see the answer to that no I think the community is right I think you're absolutely right in the sense that and it's part of the bigger trend right we're just everybody sick and tired of big. Government's big organization institutions right what we want is freedom of choice for professional freedom hang on a sec though just cuz we're tired of this or tired of that like I'm tired of lots of things but I can't. Change them but there are incentives and those reasons and there's things that occur right that that that just naturally form so just as I'm. Tired if something doesn't say I'm gonna change it but the fact that the world is the world is everybody start but also there are so many people like you know how many are self-employed today in u.s. in comparison to 20 years ago so this you know wish of people to be you know self driven professional this is why. We are talking about community because today like elephant Zurich in sook you know and there are so many excellent people bankers but they don't want to work for bank anymore why don't those people come to your platform to my platform engage their raids investment opportunity right investment reviews. Give up predictions about performance it's all recorded on the blockchain its transparent this is what Paul was talking about elected it's all about transparency and auditability right so we can create a track record of financial professionals in decentralized manner they. Don't have to be part of the bank being part of this on the list you know reporting entities that are writing reports and get paid monthly salary they can be self driven independent you know contributors well the larger organizations were the ones that owned the networks of clients you mentioned that before you onboard to a client and. They own the network now with with you know the the ability to be online and link up we all own the network it's not just it's not owned by the bank's enemies and they're they're struggling the investment. Banking side and this kind of stuff is you know you're struggling you know for that that's another matter Joey you had gone now it's just saying I mean are we talking I'm talking about security serious security tokens etc we talked about democratization recognizing the differences I mean there has to be a regulatory different driven initiative to recognize. This new asset class there has to be what we're seeing at the moment all were seeing at the moment definitely and practices even people who are dealing with something that could or should be classified as a form of utility or consumer Tokyo etc the lots of best practice guidelines issued by the Brooklyn and. Brooklyn projects and lots of other great initiatives everyone is operating now with in securities exemptions or trying to operate within the securities exemption prospectus directive exemptions various exemptions that exist in different jurisdictions raising huge. Amounts of money is that more protective for for this industry I I'm not sure that is if you sell something within a security exemption you are recognizing that it is a security so it's you know we've heard the arguments about shaft-driven initiatives and that things developed by the. Staff may ultimately be determined to be securities themselves all of these evolving are there are lots of complexities that are evolving on an almost a day to day basis which are you know we. Need to just build something that are specific for this and stop trying to fixate it into existing regimes yeah I've another thing my observation. As well is it's easy to think that. Regulators are inflicting all this stuff upon us but my experience actually shows that consumers demand regulators to do all this stuff during the during the boom you know everyone was like hey I'm able to invest in these. I SEOs leave me alone how dare you say I can't invest but then you invest in tell us and everyone starts actually saying. How did the SEC allow this happen how could you dare and all regulations of always the person who got scammed running to the regulator trying to get their money back and enforcing regulators to never allow that to happen again say I. Can't tell you how many die-hard anti-government bitcoiners. Suddenly become you know crying and run into the government as soon as they leave their money there's a there's a lot of days particularly in the retail side so they want freedom but they want to be. Protected from themselves yeah I don't see many high net-worth people do that just general observations I see a lot of retail people do sure. You know and that's absolutely right I mean the tears also he's a public given their it was it was one Bitcoin investors and Tesla started that raft of. Litigation against well he was support and and he was very likely supported by a let mine ambulance-chasing law firm in the United States trying to get someone to front to start a class. Action but I think that's interesting is if you had appropriate framers and what we are seeing with some initiatives is you know 30 page questionnaires for a utility token sale where they have to demonstrate that they're actually suitable but they actually understand what they're quite we. See locking provisions that don't allow the token to become transferable and so they've used it on the actual platform so there are lots of things that can be done to you know deal with these issues specifically and move away from the. Absolute pure speculative but how is this being sold who is it being sold to all of these things can be considered and they're being flagged by regulators but dealing with those issues directly is probably more suitable than saying let's just. You know put everything in the universe into the secret right well which by the way I still encourage I think I still think the security. Stokin platform will evolve absolutely and there are lots of tokens a absolutely should be operating with him not just. Securities laws collect investment lots of relative frameworks but that seems to be taking time and the the actual support for that legal infrastructure doesn't really exist today that's that's easy yeah yeah yeah you. Have you have that basic framework and then you have after market and the quiddity and exchanges in this kind of stuff which everyone is trying to solve or everyone thinks hoping to try to solve overtime Marina do you. Have any comments on I'd be interested in in the in in the largest difficulty that you under that that you had with respect. To marketing and selling the blockchain capital transaction back in the day G a whole year and a bit ago what was the biggest challenge the biggest challenge back then it was actually a reasonably easy sell but specifically for us investors who had to enforce. A one-year lockup because it was a Regulation D and again that's I think a very similar thing that I have that I'm seeing with again us offerings even for utility tokens that are over the securities that most investors are much more again liquidity focused but given we have to rely on the exemptions that are mainly for private. Placement type securities those comes with the longer lock ups right and so that's something that they say move a retail market is not really prepared for. Especially I would say in Asia Asia is much more driven by again immediate liquidity again we see in versus they're used to that so that's not really a problem for them but yes I would. Say that's the fact that the lock ups were in place for say us invested specifically and then there was really really early days for security tokens because there was no really any kind of framework of how to think where they should trade I think over the last few months I was also. Lack of trading venues that can trade all those security tokens and it's great to see that infrastructure finally developing lots of really smart people working on various aspects of that be it again security token exchange be it an issuance platform that allows to you know hopefully solve some of those you know transfer restrictions to do with with tokens. So from that. From that perspective versus a year ago I think. We're very advanced in that in that whole space let's - I remember we were all of us was round so we were at this panel a year ago in London right where we one of the first talks about utility took in security talking's I. Think where we were a year ago this is like feels more like five years it was in one year you know things away forward is still about security tokens and I think you know I really liked your appointment sermon about that we're not gonna replicate you know New York Stock Exchange and London Stock Exchange this whole thing doesn't make. Sense anymore and I think this is why we're all here people like you me like ronzo because now it's up to us to think about how we can put our forces together and create something truly global truly accessible was in the legal framework but down in. Completely different ways and traditional finance maybe it's more about self imposed self regulation standards on listings maybe it's more about wireless by listening you know the credited investors in with the wallets on the global scale and Sharon says you know database and and those clients right and enabling this this. Global liquidity was in zero Turner was in Z accredited investors there are so many ways we you can approach and do it but I think it's just through alliances and partnerships and it's not through like some people they go and I gonna apply for license. In Singapore and in London and in u.s. I think it's overkill it's so things are so complex so resource intensive I am I will be super happy we just get this done in Switzerland at the Malaysian time I have no inspiration to. Do the same stuff in US and in Tunisia because because in here there are great people doing it because in UK in Gibraltar there are other great people doing that and I think it's more about you know Alliance and partnerships and agreement standards if it's good enough for me it's good enough for you we do a. Joint listing sweep you know this is this is a way forward I think you know what's guys you being signaled by Ryan over there that he's. Hungry it's lunchtime so unless there's any burning comments and anyone's head Simon anything I think I think we covered it I think it is important that this is gonna be I guess more decent reason that there's gonna be a lot more centralized players. If that makes sense and there's also going to be. A decentralized element that's going to happen whether we like it or not no matter what we try and do and that's going to happen. Right okay with that thanks very much thank you.


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